A candid conversation with Spiritual Support Counselor Dr. Terri Daniel about deathbed visits, terminal lucidity, and conflicting beliefs amongst family members. A very special episode indeed!
Contact this episode's guest at www.deathgriefandbelief.com
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Life With Ghosts — LET'S CHAT! #020 | Dr. Terri Daniel | "Death Brings Out The Family Bullsh*t!"
TEDx Talk
I want to mention a few things. One is that I'm terribly ill-prepared for this interview because if you got any of my emails or Jenny's emails that she sent out, Ash was supposed to be our guest host. Ash hurt her back hours before this episode and she called me and said, “I can't do it. I'm on the floor.” I said, “Okay.” Ironically, I hurt my back. The same thing. My back went out.
Luckily, my good friend Dr. Terri Daniel was available to talk to us and I'm going to introduce her like I introduced all my guests, but I have a feeling because I'm so ill-prepared, this is going to be more of a conversation than an interview, which Terri insists is better anyway. I try to make my interviews feel like conversations, but I won't have to try this one because we are friends, and we do have conversations.
I would like to make an announcement regarding my TED Talk. A lot of you got my notice that my TEDx Talk was published, and at the same time, I had to admit that Ted made it unlisted on their platform so people would not be able to search for it and find it. The only way to get it out there into the world is for you. I'm knighting everyone here. I'm saying, “Help me get this out into the world by sending it to everyone you know and saying, “You watch this and send this to ten people because I'm not going to be able to get that TED Talk out.”
That was my best chance. I thought I was getting the word out. It's not my movie because there's a barrier to entry for my movie. You have to be in the mood for a movie. My TED Talk is nine minutes long. It's very quick, it's free, and TED has 40 million subscribers on their platform. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of them, but I have this community. This community is about 20,000 bits large. If I can get everybody here to spread the word amongst their friends and their orbit, or if they are acquaintances or people that I haven't spoken to in several years.
As we all know, grief affects everybody. Gary, you have a question. Susan made a good suggestion. She said to put it on YouTube.
Put what on YouTube?
Your TED Talk.
I'm not allowed to do that. As soon as anybody makes a copy of my TED Talk and posts it privately or anywhere, they will remove it from the platform. I could theoretically make a copy and put it on YouTube. Sure, but as long as it's on the TED platform, it's got their imprimatur. I need their imprimatur. Anyway, so that's that. Please do that, and people will ask me or even email me and say, “Why isn't TED putting your talk up? It's all about science. What's the problem?”
I had to explain that and I will explain to all of you that TED, when it comes to conservative traditional science and science that's pushing the envelope a little bit, TEDx prefers to be on the conservative side of that coin. Even though they tout that they are innovative, they are progressive and they are all about ideas that matter, new ideas that matter even though this is a new idea, and even though it's scientifically backed, they feel a little bit giddish about outwardly endorsing anything metaphysical. They said, “No, we are not going to list it, but it deserves to begin on the platform.” They are giving me that token.
I don't know if you guys remember, but many years ago, somebody who was, I don't want to say, Pim van Lommel.
It was Rupert Sheldrake.
Tell us what happened with Rupert Sheldrake.
Rupert Sheldrake, anybody knows who he is. He's a very cool scientist. He's in the UK and he writes stuff about how your dog knows that you are coming home before you come home. He talks about telepathy, and he understands that consciousness comes first. We all share the same consciousness, which explains telepathy and after-death communication. We are all swimming in the same sea of consciousness. He realized that pretty early on. Mystics knew all along, but amongst his peers, Rupert was one of the early ones who said, “This I'm cool. We needed to investigate,” and he started doing it. I admire the guy for that. I tried to have him as a speaker in my film. He was not available for this.
He has bonafide scientific credentials.
He went to Cambridge. He's a very impressive guy. He gave a talk that had metaphysics in it because that's who he is. That's what he studies. It was posted. It was in 2013 that this happened. It was posted and then the conservative scientific traditional community said, “No, this is pseudoscience. TED is better than that.” That's what they were saying. TEDx got scared and took it down because they were trying to enhance their reputation, and at the time, there were more scientists who were saying, “No, it's all Newtonian physics. Not metaphysics.” There were more scientists thinking that way than now. I don't know if we are at the tipping point yet. You say so, Terri. Are we at the tipping point yet?
You are in good company with Rupert Sheldrake. Think about it that way. I think we are at the tipping point, but apparently, TEDx isn't.
TEDx is not there yet. Maybe in a year or two. Maybe it will be. Maybe I would be able to appeal their decision and get on the platform, but for right now, you are my posse. You are the ones who are going to help me wrangle up people who don't know this message, do not know that our deceased loved ones are coming through and soon Gary Schwartz will come out and say, “This is a scientific fact now.” We have enough to come to pretty much proselytize if we want to and with license. We could tell people this is how it is. What do you think, Terri, should we do that?
I like what Melissa said TEDx is doing the antithesis of exploring new ideas and exploring new ideas is their tagline, isn't it?
Exploring new ideas but still rejecting anything revolving around consciousness studies. That's enough about my talk. I worked hard on it for about a year with help from the organizer and nineteen other people and their talks. I would go into supermarkets and rehearse because that's what I was told to do. I had to do it very naturally, and it came out pretty good. Not great. I'm not an actor but it came out pretty good. I worked hard on it and they are not going to let people see it because they don't like my topic, and that's BS. That’s censorship. Right, Terri?
It's like why did they even let you go so far as to record it if they didn't like it?
Terri Daniel is an Interpreter Hospice Chaplain, End-Of-Life Educator, and Grief Counselor, certified in death, dying, and bereavement by the Association for Death Education and Counseling and she is certified in Family-Focused Grief Therapy by the Portland Institute. Dr. Daniel is the Founder of the conference of Death, Grief and Belief and at the Ask Doctor Death podcast and she is also the author of four books on death, grief, and the afterlife. Terri, you'd be the Founder of the Afterlife Conference, right?
I don't know why I didn't put that in there. That's my big claim to fame.
Death, Grief, And Belief
I'm sure Fred knows that well. He knows. Help me, Terri Daniel. Before we get into what I want to talk to you, which are some of your upcoming events. I want to introduce you to my community in case they don't know you. Could you tell me how you came into this space? What exactly happened?
I was always a mystical kid. I read books about mysticism and religion when I was twelve. I used to go to the Krishna Temple around the corner from my house when I was fourteen. This was in the ‘60s, a long time ago. I have always been a seeker. What got me or pushed me into it was when my son died and I started having very clear and concise communications with him after he died.
I had a feeling that was going to happen, but it was so much bigger and more detailed than I ever expected it would be and so that's what got me started with after-death communication. I wrote my first book in that genre, which was all about our communication together. Some of you have probably read it. It's called A Swan in Heaven. From there, I wanted to reach out to everybody else who is doing this work. This was 2007, and I decided to put together a conference to hang out with my superhero authors and researchers.
I wanted to hang out with Raymond Moody and Sandy Goodman, as well as the people who are writing these books, so I started this conference so that I could meet them and work with them. That was our first afterlife conference. I kept getting deeper and deeper into it, getting to know all these people, and doing the conference every year. At the same time, I was a hospice volunteer. Very quickly as a hospice volunteer, I realized that volunteers are not allowed to talk to patients and families about spiritual stuff. To have those conversations, you have to be a chaplain.
I said, “I'm going to be a chaplain.” At age 56, I went to college for the first time. I started as an undergrad at 56. I got a degree in religious studies, then did a Master's in Pastoral Care and realized that I didn't want to be a chaplain because by that time, I had been doing it already and I was burning out on it I decided I wanted to teach because I'm a better talker than a listener. I had to get a Doctorate to teach.
Now I teach in the thanatology program at Marion University. For those of you who don't know, thanatology is the study of death, or what we call death studies. In that program, my students are people who want to be death doulas, chaplains, or grief counselors. I also teach at two different seminaries, where I train chaplains.
I want to say that when I say the word chaplain, which is not the word I use anymore. Everybody pictures Father Mulcahy from MASH. A Catholic priest, the White male guy with a Bible and a cross. That is not what chaplains are, but that's the old image of chaplains that we were trying to get rid of. Chaplains can now be atheists. It can be spiritual but not religious. Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, everything. Talk about paradigms changing. That's changing, and so we call ourselves spiritual care counselors or supportive care counselors, and I also do grief counseling. My titles are all mushed together. It's very hard to put a label on it. Technically, I'm a Chaplain.
I like it is encouraging to hear that it's not part of the Zeitgeist that a chaplain does not have to have a religious affiliation. Even though it sounds religious and I like that there's another word option, another phrase we could use besides chaplain, and that's been rewarding work for you.
We chaplains struggle with that because we haven't found a good word. Spiritual care counselors are pretty much what we tend to use and it's a very conservative world. It's not changing as fast as we would like it to. I’m in Portland, Oregon. It's very liberal here, religiously. I have been to Pueblo, Colorado, where I taught a workshop for hospice there and the chaplains were local pastors from the local church that they pulled in to be chaplains and they had no chaplaincy training at all. They were proselytizing and bringing their church stuff into the hospice, which you are never supposed to do. We have got a long way to go.
Before the show started, I had to confess that I wasn't prepared and that Terri, you volunteered. We had an idea for a couple of topics to start with. There are two of them I'm thinking of right now. Which one should we start with first?
I wanted to talk about something that I'm working on now. My Afterlife Conference is now called the Conference on Death, Grief and Belief. It's because, as I was continuing in school and being trained as a theologian, I was learning so much about religious beliefs and toxic theology and all that the afterlife conference as it stood didn't work anymore.
I wanted to bring in more academic teaching and the influence of religious beliefs. Everybody here, you get it about after-death communication and mediums, but In your life on your death bed or your mother’s, father's, or somebody else's deathbed with the family, all their religious stuff is going to come in, and even stuff that is ingrained in you that you didn't even know you had is going to come up and so that's what I focus on now. That's what the conference on Death, Grief, and Belief is about, and we have a seminar that focuses on family dynamics at the bedside and beyond.
What that's about is around a dying person or after they die in the grief space, all the family BS comes up that you've dealt with all your life with this family. That's my little project right now, which is helping families deal with that, and it particularly comes up when their spiritual or mystical stuff is going on. I see this all the time in hospice. Somebody is having deathbed visions and I see people are already chatting about this and they or the person who's dying or seriously ill say, “Great-grandma came to visit me,” and all the family members who are Born Again Christians around the bedside said, “No. That was the demons. That wasn't grandma. You can't talk to grandma.”
That stuff comes up a lot, and then after the death, when there's grief, and you are having dreams, visions, and communications about what's happening in your immediate family around that. There's a lot of other stuff not about the mystical thing, but that's what we were first going to start talking about family dynamics around spiritual experiences. Does that resonate with any of you, guys? Is that of interest? Fred is like, “Yeah.”
I have to tell you a fun story about our friend Tracey West. Do you mind if I tell the story? She goes like this at our conference in Virginia Beach, it was when Even Alexander had popped up on the scene and he was a big deal then and he was at our conference right when his book first came out. It was lunchtime and there was a lunch banquet. At my conference, I always have the speakers sit at the table with the attendees. I don't put them off in a private space.
Tracey came up to me and said, “I will pay you money to let me sit next to Even Alexander,” and he was standing right there. I said, “You don't have to pay money. Here he is. Even, would you like to sit next to Tracey?” He's like, “Of course,” and so they sat together and that was fun. You guys talk about all of this stuff all the time on Stephen's show, but the angle I'm coming in with is about the family dynamics around it.
Let's say there is a body in the bed, in the hospital bed, or wherever it is and you are saying goodbye to your loved one, either dying or has passed. Some people in the room are believers and some people are not believers in any afterlife. The non-believers don't want to hear comments like, “They are in a better place. They are. They are right next to me, but they are in a better place,” or whatever it is. They don't want to hear certain mystical types of platitudes. What do you think about it?
It depends on what's happening in the family. You can have a family where, let's say, one of the people in the family is you and somebody else is an Evangelical Christian, and somebody else is an atheist who doesn't believe in anything besides the physical. There are three very different things and there's going to be a conflict in that conversation.
The Christian is going to say, “He's going to heaven to be with Jesus,” or, “I hope he was saved so that he can go to heaven.” The atheist is going to look at that person and say, “That's such crap.” The spiritual person is going to say, “There is no judgment in the universe.” We are all coming with these very different cosmologies and Theology and the bottom line in families is if I was in that room as the chaplain and I have been in that room 100 times, and the family now starts arguing.
The Christian person is saying to Stephen, “You believe in demons and ghosts, and that's from the devil. I'm so worried about you because you are going to go to hell,” and then the atheist is like, “I'm sick of all of you. I'm walking out of the room. There's nothing. There is no afterlife,” and everybody is arguing and this happened. How do I deal with that?
Sometimes, what I have to do is separate people or shut down that conversation and say, “None of this matters right now. Let's focus on this person who died or is dying in this body in the bed. How can we give him unconditional love and support? Wherever you think his spirit is going, even if you don't think he has a spirit. It doesn't matter. It's not about you and your beliefs. It's about this person in the bed.”
It's not about you. It's not about your beliefs. It's about this person dying on the bed.
That's something that people have a very hard time with, but that's what we try to encourage and that's what I also have to do as a person who sits with the dying. I have to leave my beliefs out of it. I know exactly where they are going and what's happening, but I cannot bring that into the room or the patient, which frustrates me.
Do you know exactly where they are going? Where are they going?
I know where I think they are going. I do not know exactly where they are going. I know what my Theology and cosmology tell me. I know what my experience has been with other dimensions that resonate as truth for me, but I would never say this is the 100% absolute truth and nothing else is true. That's because I spent ten years in a theology school, and the thing I learned the most from that is how to say, “I don't know,” and that was not easy.
If somebody says, “What happens when people die?” I say, “Here's what I believe. Consciousness exists outside of the body. I believe that we have experiences in other realms. I'm very aligned with The Tibetan Book of the Dead and their version of what happens in the 49 days of Bardo. If you've not read The Tibetan Book of the Dead, I highly recommend it. It's a great explanation of the inner life, the life between, and that will be my answer and I would never say this is what happens when you die. I would say, “Here's what we have heard.”
You are saying that's hard for you because you know it all.
It’s because I know it's true for me. If I see a patient who's struggling and I see this all the time and they are afraid of going to hell because that's what they believe. They think they were a sinner or something. As a Chaplain, I'm not supposed to tell them that they are wrong or support them where they are, but I'm not going to sit there and say, “You are probably going to hell.” I’m not going to sit there and say, “You better accept Jesus and that way, you won't go to hell.” I'm not going to do any of that. I have to help them come to a place on their own where they can grapple with that and find their piece.
There are exceptions if somebody is having intense anxiety because they think they are going to help. I will tell them that, and there are some chaplains who will do that. I will whisper in there and I will say, “I'm going to tell you something that you've probably never heard before, but people don't go to hell. People don't get punished by the divine. You will be loved and healed.” I'm not supposed to do that, but I would rather do that than watch somebody die in emotional anguish.
I will share this with the audience. I only could do this because I like you, Terri, and the audience could feel that. When I first heard of Terri Daniels's name when I first came out with my film, that's when I first heard about you, Terri. There are a couple of different people who said something, and I'm talking about people who are fairly well-known in the space because I wanted them to endorse my film.
Their assistant will tell me, and I'm talking about Eben Alexander types of people. I believe Eben Alexander's assistant as well as 3 or 4 other assistants, said, “You should talk to Terri Daniel. She's tough. I was warned about you.” I was a little bit apprehensive about meeting you because you do come across as assertive and confident.
What I liked the most about your assertiveness was that you sounded right. You seemed like you knew what you were talking about. It wasn't just somebody putting out a position. You were saying, “No. This is what I believe in. This is why I believe it. You know I'm right, like I tell you you are right, but you were right.” I wanted to say I appreciate who you are and what you have to say and you are very educational to learn to. Let me ask you this question. Aside from people having different beliefs about mysticism when someone is in a situation like this. You have a symposium coming up about family systems and what's happening at the end of life. What other topics are you covering in that symposium?
We are going to talk about estrangement in families. There are 170 people or something in this group right now. I am sure that a percentage of you have family members that you don’t talk to anymore. What happens when you are going to die or they are going to die? How do we deal with that? Do we feel an obligation to heal that relationship before they die and does that even work? I'm going down my list of speakers here. When faith fails in a family. What often happens in a family, even if they all believe the same thing? They are praying for the person to get better and the person dies anyway, and then they have a crisis of faith, but their faith tells them that the reason their prayers didn't work is because they didn't pray hard enough, weren't faithful enough, or they were being punished for something. That's a crisis that happens.
We have got Robert Neimeyer as a speaker, who's a major guy in the grief research world and he's going to talk about emotional regulation after the death of a child and how to manage those overwhelming waves of unbearable grief and rage that we feel when a child dies, tools for managing that, and for families to interact with each other after the death of a child.
We have somebody talking about a similar thing with the death of a parent. We are going to talk about home funerals. I'm throwing this all out here for you guys so you can converse with me, ask questions, and interact with me about this. Finally, we have a whole discussion about family dynamics with physician-assisted death.
That's a big one. I'm in Oregon. Medical Aid In Dying is legal here. We call it MAID. Imagine what happens when somebody decides that they want to do MAID, and other people in their family, and when I say family, I don't necessarily mean blood biology family object to it. For whatever reasons, they may have morals, religion, or whatever. How do we deal with that? Those are the kinds of things we are talking about and a lot of stuff. We can pick any one of those topics and riff on it all you want.
Family Estrangements
I am interested in family estrangements. That got my attention first because there was this family estrangement in my family, which I'm now embarrassed of, but it's an interesting topic to me. What can you share with me about that?
There's an expectation. There's a myth that when somebody's dying, the angels come and their heart opens and everybody becomes beautiful and enlightened as they are dying. This is not true. This does not happen. It may happen once in a while, but the idea of somebody close to death is having all these visions and all their personality traits and everything they were before melt away into the pure love of spirit that doesn't happen. You die like you live.
You die like you live. The idea of a dying person's personality melting away into the pure love of spirit is a myth.
What often happens with estrangement is that people will say, “My dad was terrible to me. He rejected me because I was gay and he kicked me out of the family.” Now here it is twenty years later and he's dying and I feel like I should go make peace with him. I have seen this happen many times when the gay kid flies across the country to see the dad and the dad on the deathbed and still refuses to see the kid who is standing out there in the hallway crying.
Don't expect somebody to change. Has the dad had some counseling, or who knows what? Let's say the dad is on his deathbed and he wants to make peace with the kid. It works that way, too. He may say to his wife, “Call our son. I want to apologize to him for kicking him out of the family and judging him.” Mom calls the son and the son says, “I'm sorry that he is dying, Mom. I hope you will be okay, but I'm not coming. I'm done with him.” That can work in both directions. It can also work in a good way. The son can come. Forgiveness can happen. That happens, too. Mostly, it doesn't. That's one scenario.
That's pretty sobering. Could you give me a good story? People are embracing each other and being like, “I'm completely different now because I’m at the end of my life and I have no perspective.”
I can't think of one off here. I know they exist.
Are they all dark?
No. They are not all dark. I don't want to think of it that way. The kids do come. Sometimes, they do see the person who's dying, whether that person who's dying says, “It's all good. I love you anyway,” of course that happens, and maybe it doesn't. Sometimes, you get there and depending on where they are in the dying process, they can't talk anymore. There are stages of dying where you are transitioning. You are still able to interact with the people around you, but then you go into another stage, which is called the act of dying, where you are out of the body.
Finally, the sun arrives and he comes into the room and says, “Dad, I'm here,” but Dad now can't interact with him anymore, which is why we need to have these conversations before somebody starts to die. The bottom line is to do your forgiveness now. Don't wait until somebody is on their deathbed because there's going to be too much other stuff going on around that and they might die suddenly. They might get hit by a bus.
Do your forgiveness now. Don't wait until somebody is on their deathbed.
I'm estranged from my father, so I am struggling with that as well. He's 97, and our separation is because of religious issues because he's very angry at me that I do not embrace his Jewish religion. He never ceases to get tired of telling me. This usually happens with Christianity, but that my education was crap and he doesn't read my books and he thinks I'm a rebellious person. It's all based on religious things.
Did you attempt to reconcile with your father?
Not really. I'm trying to stay supportive of him. I sent him texts. I sent him loving messages like he was an architect and I went on this architectural tour and I sent him pictures and I'm trying to send him little chit-chatty things and I say, “I want you to know I'm thinking about you. Look at this beautiful picture I took,” but that's all I can do. Sure enough, he will come back and say, “Happy Rosh Hashanah.”
Do you take that as a slight?
Yes. I do and that's on me. I should write back, “Happy Rosh Hashanah back to you, too,” but this is what happens with these issues.
Do you know he intended it as a slight?
I do not know that, but it feels like that, and that's what happens in relationships. I think it's like, “Okay, but don't forget about that Jewish thing between us.”
Being an annoying chaplain, I could also see that you have forgiveness. You have forgiveness in your heart. You could do better than that.
It's not forgiveness. There's nothing to forgive him for. I don't like to engage with him because he insults me constantly.
I could relate to having an assaulting father. I'm with you there. I'm on your team there.
He thinks. I went to some fly-by-night crappy school and got a BS degree, which is not true. I went to one of the best seminaries in America, Fordham University. That's not a BS school. He insults my work, my education, and everything about me. The reason I don't talk to him is I don't want people to be insulting me. Every time I talk to him, I feel terrible for three days afterwards, and I don't want to spend any of my time feeling like that. I'm protecting myself from that feeling, but he's going to die soon. I have to reconcile. “Am I going to go by his deathbed,” or I haven't figured that out yet. That's not a happy story, either. Sorry.
It's not but it's a story that a lot of people can relate to.
Terminal Lucidity
One thing I want to ask you about is because it reminded me of it, and then I want to get the audience a chance to ask questions as well. What is the clinical word or term for when someone is dying and they are fairly in and out of consciousness? They are not saying anything that makes sense, but then there's a lucid interval where they are sharpest attacks like a light bulb burns brightest before going out that thing and all of a sudden, they seem like they are not dying anymore, but it's less a very short period. What is that called?
It's called terminal lucidity. It happens quite a lot. Sometimes, they use the term rally. Suddenly, they will wake up and they want to eat. They will talk and laugh, and then they will die the next day. It happens quite often.
What would you say is the Newtonian explanation versus the metaphysical explanation for that?
I do not know. I don't think there is anything other than a metaphysical explanation.
Tell me that. What’s that?
My guess is because there are so many people around. This would be a good family story that the love of the people around him is pulling them back in. During a certain phase of dying in the transition phase, that's a very doable thing. I'm guessing that's what happens if they can feel you around them. Sometimes, they do it because it's like, “Uncle Fred is coming. He will be here tonight,” and Uncle Fred comes and people will wake up to see him.
It has to do with love, but it's a very small window. The opposite side of that is when somebody is actively dying when they are past that stage where they can still interact. Now, when you look at them, they look like they are unconscious. That is not the time when you want to love-bomb them. For the same reason, it brings them back, but at a certain point, you don't want to bring them back. At that point, you want to stop with love and give them space and let them go; otherwise, they will feel that love and cling to stay.
You want to stop love bombing at a certain point to give the dying person space to go. Otherwise, they’re feeling that love, clinging, and staying.
The same thing is true: not just the love bombing but also the crying. When you are crying and you are saying, “It's okay, Dad. It's okay to go, but you are sobbing at the same time.” That's a mixed message, and the dad does not want to see his child sad and crying, so he's going to stick there as long as he can so that you won't be sad.
With my grandmother, there was no love bombing. We were hanging out with her for a couple of days waiting. She seemed to wake up from a stupor, and I attributed a different metaphysical explanation. You would know better because you are around it more, but in my case, my explanation was she was granted permission by whoever. By God, whoever by the spirit world. She said, “Why don't you say goodbye to the people who are here? Give a nice send-off and then you are on your way.”
I thought of the Newtonian explanation. The morphine has worn off. I don’t know why I thought of that before. It’s so obvious. Somebody in here was asking, “Are they unconscious from the drugs?” Very often, what happens is that she says, “Uncle Fred is coming. Can you lower Dad's morphine a little bit so that he can wake up a little and say hello and Uncle Fred?” and you can do that. You can titrate it down and people wake up.
Except for the fact that people with dementia and Alzheimer's also have terminal lucidity and it's not due to drugs.
They don't only have terminal lucidity. They have just lucidity. Even when they are not dying, people with dementia will sometimes turn into the present for a few minutes and then go back to whether they are dying or not. That's true.
Terri, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. I always love talking to you, and before we go, I'd like to know about the event. If people want to sign up for that, where do they go?
The easy way to remember it is to go to DeathGriefandBelief.com. That's pretty simple. You will see it there under conference or events or something like that.
Important Links
TED Talk - Talking to the Dead is Doctor-Recommended
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